I became a member of this forum over 2 years ago now and despite a few handbags and slaps have always found it to be a great forum thats informative and friendly.Thats the way it should be because at the end of the day thats all it is..a forum.Its not real life as such.Almost like the old days of being in a chat room. Not so long ago there was a very heated thing going on with members and admin.At the time i was totaly blameing admin saying bad management and calling them Hitlers etc etc.I can now see where they were coming from because new members were sometimes frightend off by some of us.With out new members the forum has no chance.Anyways i was prepaired to give it a second chance hopeing that all will be fine and that the forum will go back to its old self and maybe key members like Rich,Loon and Alex (big big loss) would return.They never of course but the forum should be strong enough to carry on with out them.So far it has but something is still not right.I once again urge the powers that be to look at your rolls with in the forum and ask your selfs how can it improve?.If you think this is hard you should try running a REAL LIFE business with over 35 employes to keep in check and fellow directors to answer to.Now thats real moderating. The forum has gone stale and its no longer worth loging on to.I talk to members and ex members and they all say the same thing...its boring.So come on members,mods,admin..how can we improve?

steve,
Im glad you have mentioned the 'old days' because I was one of the people who felt I couldnt ask a question for fear of ridicule and pack mentality.
This forum is evolving as it has only really been fairly recently that events came to a head. Of note is that some of the people you refer to, who made dramatic farewell speeches, are now coming back.

To answer your question.......... I think the forum is now more welcoming than it was 6 months ago, and I would like to think that new members feel able to ask and get advice. To make it better....? Well, what is better? Better socially, better for aquarists- I personally feel that we all have slightly differing views on what it should be and if we have ideas then lets discuss them. More new members joining can only be good and this is something to aim for.

I do know that this is a piranha keepers forum with a friendly social element- if people want a chat room perhaps other sites are more suitable.
As a newly added moderator, for my part, I will try to bring to the table a reasonable and level headed approach to modding and learn more about this fascinating hobby. I do not pretend I am a enormously experienced P keeper, but I will say what I can- and I know your input and advice is greatly valued by other members, and to be honest by me as well.

Nothing stays the same, and we should perhaps move with it and not dwell too much........

Before we go any further this is not a "ive had enough so im going bollocks".Or is it having a pop at anyone.Im only saying what everyone else is thinking so lets be honest and see what response we get.

with steve its not a bad forum but its needs some work

I never said "old days" in reference to the forum.Only old "old days" in reference to chat rooms.



But your almost a newbie Dan.Im talking longer before you were a member.I know im only a 2 year member but i uesed to buy fish and talk to Alex etc way before then.IMO Alex was the forum.Chris is a close second.Them 2 are on a different level.There knowledge should be written in stone.Who else is going to give me advise on here at that level apart from them two.At the moment all i see is a them and us atitude between admin and members.Almost like rich and poor.

Let us know what you think needs doing then ashley.

I don't find this forum boring in the slightest. What does make it boring for some is the continual harassment of fellow members in regard to their attire, or their sexual orientation. The single 'smilies' in answer to a question, questioning people on their 'IQ' etc, etc. These are the sort of things that make it boring, especially for new members that browse before posting. If you are that bored why not post a topic so that it can be debated. I have heard that you have a certain amount of knowledge when it comes to keeping piranha's in good health etc., why not write an article about what you know. You talk about 'key' members, Alex is a key member, the others are just clowns, contributing little to recruiting new members and using the forum as a personal chat room. The trouble now Steve, is you have no one to exchange banter with, that's why you find it boring. Its a forum for people to interact in, that have a mutual appreciation of fish keeping, piranha's in particular. You belong to other forums, are they boring as well? Is that why you keep coming back here? Mods and admin are doing what they are supposed to be doing, deleting unsavoury post's for one. Your a member this is the suggestion forum, make a suggestion! What do you think the forum needs, what does this forum lack that others have?

Steve,
you've gone from saying the forum is boring and stale to now bemoaning that you have no-one to seek advice from. There isnt a person on here that would deny alex and chris' depth and breadth of knowledge- but their decisions on their involvement are theirs.
The forum is evolving, and is capable of doing so without going back to what it was.
As regards 'them and us' my view on that is that mods are now seperating themselves from derision and sarcasm- which happened, and shouldnt have. I cant and wont speak for Paul, but in MY opinion he has a rational and impartial mod team which was needed.
Lets keep this in perspective. We all want it to be a fun place so lets work toward a friendly forum with a sound basis in professional P keeping.

What do you advise then Steve? Perhaps Alex and Chris could buy the forum from Paul and run it how they want? I agree that they are very knowledgable people but there are others out there that know more. Look at how many there are on Fury. It is up to the person on how to take the advice and decide which is good or bad. Sometimes they may take the wrong advice but think it is the right way to go.
I think the forum has been getting better with less snidey/piss taking remarks to new members. There are still some purile banter going on. Whatever is up between you and Armand Steve? I think he worships you!
All I want is to learn and have a laugh but not at the cost of others. Chris has gone for a bit, as I thought he would when he got "demoted" and hope he comes back and posts more often. He knows far more than I will ever know.
This forum has been talked about on other forums and it was known not to come here for advice as you would got ripped apart from established members, so I was told. That is not the sort of talk I would like to hear about this forum. I would like people to say this was a good place to come for advice.

its hard to say the setup of the forum is good the forum is just down on posts i think new members are put off by what some members are puting we need to think that we may no what to do but they dont its the posts that make a good forum we need vids on members setups to hlep new members no what piranhas need

You also have to consider that only about 10% of all that read the post's bother to respond. Why do you think that is? If the post's were more amicable then maybe the readers would feel more comfortable in replying.Come on Alex, you know you want to reply, we miss you.

No you need him Den.Your know how is no better then Armands. Keep licking the cherry blossom.

Read what you just typed and you may get an idea of what we have been going on about. That post was unnecessary Steve and I'm sorry but I'm not going to rise to it.

The reason for that post was because Alex was reading it at that precise moment . I deleted your reply to save you getting embarrassed.

Spot on Dennis.

Hold on a second bro, hold on....I think it is the opposite......

Here he goes again, you all guys see how Steve can't just get me out of his mind.....he keeps talking about me all the time...

Love you Armand.

You have not got a clue, have you, really. You never got to be a mod did you? I wonder why?

Someone been on the beer this evening?
But Steve the comments/insults are getting personal and it's not what new members would like to see, don't you think? Two or three members bitching at each other. If you were looking at a place for information, you wouldn't go to a place where they are slagging each other off.
At least I have made comments to a certain member on another site tonight!!

You are absolutely right there Ian, and I am guilty of falling into the trap.

Because i dont have the time Den..to busy getting richer and richer me old china. Work hard in the day...relax in the evening. Not drinking tonight Curly.To much to do in the morning around the house.Plus someone is collecting Tinkerbell in the afternoon.

Dudes.... I'm " just" a newbie on this forum, but as some of you may know, I never refuse to give an opinion.

On this forum, two things come to my mind. First of all, moderators ALWAYS should keep respect for their members. With a sentence like yours above Big Den, I don't ask myself how Steve never becamne a mod, but how you did... no offense, but keep respectful to anyone. It comes with the job.

A second point, is that opinions seem to overrule the reason. If someone asks if anyone ever kept oscars with p's, it' s pretty dull to ask why anyone would ever want to do that. It' s not an answer to the question and a discouragement for the topicstarter to continue.

If you want a more exciting forum, keep an open mind to anyone and everything.

But personally, I don' t consider the forum boring. But yeah, it could be better

No offense to anyone, cheers mates

just thought id add my 2pence worth

iwas following what was being said last night and today and can kinda see both angles firstly as a newbie on this site and also as a long standing member on another fish forum. first impresions of the site was that it was a good and freindly imformative piranha site and mostly uk members. i know how after being a member on a site for a while and answering the same questions becomes a bit boring espesially the ones on general fish keeping and not specific fish questions. changing species and joining here has been a bit of an eye opener for me what i can say is if a new member sets up piranha for the first time and buys juvie reds its a bit intimidating putting up pic and posts to people with multiple tanks housing monsters that would scare the neighbours kidz there should be a new to piranha section just for newbie vids and pics then we could see members evolving on the site .things that im geting all exited about with mine at the moment proberbly aint to interesting to someone who is a seasoned keeper if you see what i meen . ive just read this back to my self and dont sound as good as it does in my head lol anyway just a sugestion

Thanks for the input Vinny, I agree that new members are essential and no-one would want any new P keeper to feel afraid to ask questions/post pics because everybody learns from others and hopefully wants to share their experiences.
Believe me, the forum is far more welcoming to new people and ideas than it was last year, but it is work in progress to get it where we want it to be. I think another gallery is a good idea if it has the support.
Keep posting away and cheers again for the constructive input.

I fully understand your concerns but I hope your not put off. I have been keeping piranha's for a good many years but its always a pleasure to see new keepers displaying their fish and tanks. I have always enjoyed sharing my limited knowledge and experience. I keep a few piranha's but that's not my main hobby, I like all manner of fish, central and south American cichlids being one of my favourites. In my opinion growing on fish from juveniles is very satisfying, rather than ready made full grown specimens. We do have a section for newbie advise etc, and a welcome room where you can introduce yourself. But anyway, it doesn't matter where you post a picture, or ask for advise, we are all here to help.

Combi,
again thanks for your input. I feel your point about keeping an open mind is generally right- BUT personally I will not give what I perceive to be speculative advice or suggest experimentation in the name of pushing boundaries, where the piranhas wellbeing is concerned. The whole oscar/RB debate being a prime example.
We are hobbyist fish keepers, not researchers (unless you tell me otherwise) so with that parameter in mind- my advice will always be conventional and based on documented experience.
I have enjoyed reading some of the debate on pushing the boundaries i.e serra cohabitation, but possibly debate is where it should stay.
As an aside- this forum has seen its fair share of what I can only describe as 'interesting' questions from across the atlantic so frustration will creep in. We're human after all.........


Dan

hey guys
i first came here when i had my gibbus and knew nothing about piranha and asked a question and got the info and advice i needed by all of you (steve chris Curly loon rich alex big-den dan bandit armand) ect

now i read all the posts and read the advice given and take it in
its allways the same questions (i askedthe same one) every time we get a new member
and can p!ss old members off. but ive noticed theres always the forum staff giving the advice
and not forum members because of this

this forum hs some thing about it i have signed up to other forums buy everyday i come here its like a bug lol

we get new members all the time but they never post anything we need to work on this lol

Its true,we are getting new members all the time, but most sign on so that they can make full use of the site. Its difficult to know why they don't post, perhaps they get their questions answered simply by browsing. I have heard that some new members, after reading some of the post's, felt intimidated and didn't want to appear foolish by asking a mundane question, or posting pictures of their fish. This is a specialised site and looks as if we only deal with piranha's, but that's not so, as you know. If we want to make this site great we will all have to contribute, not just the staff.

Hi.

This forum is great, has a lot of good quality info and I have become pretty much attached to this site, I always feel like loging, even if I have no time I log in for some minutes to make some reading.

I think as Combichist wrote, you guys need to be a lil' more opend minded because sometimes new guys come and post things like that of the oscar and piranha, serras cohabitation, life feeders etc, etc and they get bashed or recieve rude comments, so people is discouraged to post.

I know this kind of questions are annoying to all the veterans and experienced P keepers but the fact of the matter is that newcomers who know lil or nothing about P's are going to make this kind of questions all the time, most people get into P's cause they think it is cool to feed life feeders and it would be cool to cohab P's with other fish being P's or not.

Fury's got a lot of people because yankees are pretty much opend minded and they don't make rude/sarcastic comments to newcomers who ask "silly questions" they always try to help and never try to make others look dumb.

Lads It is true this forum has changed quite a lot for good recently but yet there's still work to do to improve the site. Be the most opend minded that you can and if someone shows up asking a question about feeding mice to his P's or something like that, we have to give him a good polite explanation of why is wrong to do it(don't misunderstand, Im not saying you dont do this, actually many good people here does, but it is also true some rude comments are expressed too in such threads).


This are my two cents and please don't just say "the mexican is a fool he doesn't know what he's talking about", the fact is that as a forist I have suffered this and witnessed this attitude towards other membrers.. Remember this forist whose name was Kokokoman that used to post pictures of Rhom-pygo cohab? He got bashed good and treated like a perfect idiot because some of you guys assumed he was tring to wind you up!!!.

When I first got into de site I was also treated very rude because I talked about this guy who supposedly bred cariba in Mexico. some of you guys assumed I was winding you up which was not true, I was a newbie as many others who enter the forum and dont know much about the topic.

I didn't leave the forum but in those days some of the guys attitude would have certainly made newbies feel like leaving the site. I say it again, things have changed a lot recently that's true but damage is done: I talked to this guy at fury about loging in here to see my pictures and to participate in the POTM countest and he told me he used to be a member but he's stopped posting time ago..."I hate that site", "I won't go back there ever" were his words......

I think you guys should take into account this feedback.




Cheers.

Good post Armand and valid points. I do not think there is anyone else left now, to do the things you mention. Of course, all are welcome to post on this site as long as they don't break the few simple rules.
Oh, and by the way, haven't seen any pics of your fish lately, must be getting big now.

Very well put Armand. Don't bash the foreigners! We have to make a note that it is illegal to feed live food to our fish here but not in other countries.

Thanks Den, my fish are the size my sig says. I think my solo caribe is a bit stunted cause he's about to be one year old and he hasn't reached the 6" mark. His diet is pretty much the same the others eat who actually showed a different growing rate, regardless he eats well and he looks quite healthy and chunky.

My solo tank has no heater in it because to tell true I could have all the tanks with no heater, as I told you once solo tank's temp never drops less than 19ºC and that in winter, while the rest of the year temp averages 24º-26º without the need of a heater.

Maybe if I put a heater and rise the temp to a constant level of 28º-30º he could grow faster.

You touch an important point and this is in fact a conflict source because many people of other countries find funny or even sort of ridiculous that you guys have even laws to prevent people from feeding life feeders.

That happened to me, I thought "geez this guys are crazy, cannot believe they have actually made laws for that". You have to understand that some foreigners have other cultural backgrounds which are in many aspects nearly barbaric. Could you imagine what can somebody think about a country which even have laws to protect minnows from being used as feeder becuase its cruel while in his country thousands of children under 6 years old beg for money in the streets, are used to get money and live in sewerds without the government nor the wealthy social classes giving a rat A** about it?.

What about Japan?, Japan is one economic world power, it is a very advanced country however they treat animals as savages, and not only japanese, many asiatic nations are cruel with animals and fish so could you imagine what could an asiatic think about you having laws to protect minnows?.....

Don´t get me wrong guys although it semmed funny to me at the beginning im an educated guy who has traveled and know other cultures and understand (at least I'm opend minded and try to do so) other cultures and points of views, however to tell true many people in many countries not only in Mexico would laught about those mentioned laws of you.

What my point is that differet cultural backgrounds lead us into conflict at the time to participate and give opinions about some given topic and things get worse when the participants show a narrow minded.

Maybe that's why in general terms the yankees as the multcultural society as they are show themselves always more opend minded and assertive than other counties in some cases.



Cheers.

armand... i think you may have a slight misunderstanding of the law on feeding live animals to our piranhas... as i understand it, (going off what jonny posted a while back on the subject) the law doesnt directly relate to the subject in hand, but is worded on a much more general basis. By that i mean that rather than specifying it is illegal to feed live animals to other live animals, the law is actually that any animal which you purchase, you have a duty of care for. This then goes on to mean that you are breaking the law, if you knowingly or deliberately put that animals life in danger.

Therefore, if you like, it is illegal to feed live food to piranhas, because of a technicality... not because it says in black and white "it is illegal to feed live animals to other live animals".

I understand what you are saying in other countries treating animals with disrespect, and not caring about the pain animals suffer, but in the UK we believe in animal rights, which governs what is and isnt acceptable. it forms part of a civilised society, and as this is a UK based forum, that is going to be the attitude portrayed to anyone asking the question. the law surrounding the subject, is not in any way "funny" or "sort of rediculous"... it is simply showing compassion for all living creatures.

on the back of that... why is a minnow or a goldfish's life any less valuable than a piranhas life? or indeed a cat or a dogs life? why should one living thing have any less value placed on its life than another, just because they're cheaper to buy? or because they're not warm and fuzzy? i know there is a natural pecking order, but in home aquariums where the diet of the fish can be controlled, there is no need to feed any live food to the fish you chose to keep. especially when you consider that using live feeders is actually lower in nutritional value than other choices of food, and also carries a high risk of passing on parasites and diseases. Feeding live food to piranhas is only done for one reason, and that is for the entertainment of the individuals who do it. for that reason it is wrong... just as bear bateing and dog fighting.

You've explained that rather well Tom, nice one.

i got bored after the first line of the first post!!! toy's, pram, thrown me thinks! i couldnt think of a better lot of staff and admins crack on.....

Yeah, I agree with you Tom you're right and I understand your point.

The matter of the fact is not the law, I dont discuss the value of the life either, what I wanted to show is the different ways things, laws, costumes may be conceived by individuals of different societies and cultures.

I took a while to re-think this topic. In the first place because I've learned on another forum that sometimes it's the best thing to do: don't say anything for a while and just think about it.
So first of all I'll apologize to Big Den. You're right, I wrote it somewhat too personal and that would have been better to PM. But any other mod would have gotten the same response from me when getting drawn into it. I know things can get nasty, but being a moderator means standing above that. In every b*tch fight, it should be the mod who holds back his own opinion, to avoid "choosing a site".

But back ontopic. Every piranha forum eventually will run into the same problem. We're all hobbyist, I won't deny that. But that should never mean, we ignore any scientific improvement by clinging on to outdated "knowledge".
And you guys, just like on any other forum on piranhas (incl the Dutch PF), give the old knowledge too much credit. Minimum tank size, gallons per fish rules, solitary rules, everything seems to be covered by old "rules".
But those rules were never rules at all. Even Frank Magallanes specifically uses the phrase "I advice...". They are guidelines, not 100% rules.

So keep an open mind. For example a cohab question. Yes they become frustrating, cause most times it's asked with the expectation there are easy cohabs. And no, there are no "easy cohabs", but that does noet mean there are no possible cohabs at all. So keep an open mind, don't reply them if you dislike them, but don't just "close" a topic by giving replies that make the topicstarter think twice before asking anything again.

Science and hobby are a difficult cohab, but also a necessary one. Like I explained the PF members before, I only joined sites like this for their great input of experienced fish keepers. However their 20 years of fishkeeping, does not make their opinion more trustworthy then knowledge from some newbies.

You want the forum more exciting? Well, just accept there is a lot still to be discovered on piranhas. So stay openminded on anything and anyone. Stop thinking we know what's good for the fish' health. They are used to dry seasons in which the water parameters are horrible, however we claim to "know" that the parameters should be ideal.
Stop stating nothing can be kept with piranhas just because it does not work out well in most occasions. Just say we have not discovered yet what makes a cohab work, or not work. But calling it impossible is a human interpretation of what we do not understand.

Go on with the hobby, but accept and understand that every little piece of knowledgew will become outdated. That every "rule" we apply is not a rule but a guideline.
This hobby would not survive without science, and the science is growing rapidly, using input from the hobby. They don't get along very easy, but they walk hand in hand.

Next time you say something is impossible, or stupid, just ask yourself whý you think so. Is it, or are we just dealing with things we don't understand ?

Good post Lucien, and something worth considering. The 20 gallon per fish rule is a guide, as you say, and something I have always tried to stick to. But recently, being overrun with red belly juveniles, put 15 in a 150 gallon tank. They were all around 1.5 inches, and I thought at the time that it wouldn't last long and that some would be killed. Well I sold the 15 a couple of weeks ago and they were all 5" or more in size. No deaths, no fin nips, perfect fish. This prompted me to try again, so I have 4 at 3" about 4 months old, and 5 at 7" about 14 months old. The 5 are in a 90 gallon tank and have been all their lives. I added the 4 smaller ones without changing a thing. The tank has a small piece of bogwood with a couple of plants. They settled in straight away and to this date, not so much as a nipped fin. How long it will last, I don't know, but for now they are fine. One thing that would concern me by ignoring the 20 gallon per fish rule, is growth rate. It didn't seem to affect the 15 in the 150 though.

To co-hab Serrasalmus species would be a rather expensive experiment in the UK. I have often thought of adding my maculatus to a shoal of reds, but don't have the nerve. I think initially the mac would be nipping their tails but IMO the reds would turn on it eventually.

Many years ago I had a few convict cichlids in with 7 reds in a 120 gallon. They got along fine, up to a point. The convicts when breeding, would defend their territory, this would mean facing down one of the reds. This normally ended up with a convict with no jaws. But, they got along fine other than that, I even had to remove some, from time to time because there were so many. The adult reds even started eating the pellets put in for the convicts, so this ended up as their staple diet.

Experimenting with co-habs is always going to be controversial because of the risk of death to the fish.

A serra cohab would cost me a fortune also, so I don't even dare to spent 350 euros for a second geryi though have been kept as a group by many people before.
A Serra with a group of macs is something that I strongly advice nót to try without 24/7 surveillance. The behavior is described over here and you might expect the same I guess.

The story on the convicts is one that has been mentioned many times before. There are a few species of cichlids that seem to do pretty good in a piranha tank. It's not a 100% guarantee, but definately not impossible. Just a matter of needing to understand what makes it work out fine, or not at all. A good example. I even saw some American cohab experiments that went a lot better then I would have expected. Unfortunately some fish got killed, but on the other hand it provided lots of information on S.maculatus.
It actually seems to be a species pretty easy to cahab and breed.

The 20 gallon per fish is something I also advise every newbie and if they go against it, I will always warn them that being stubborn on that matter, most times is being stupid. However, especially with a Pygo shoal, lots of people have mentioned that they seem to feel better in an overstocked tank. So that should be reason enough to at least question the "rule". I don't think it will affect growth rate. They have evolved for surviving the dry season, in shallow waters with nearly no food. They have adapted to many extreme conditions, so as a species they might be one of the strongest we know...

But like you daid : those topics will always be controversial and there will always be risks included. And especially newbies, should be made aware of the risks. And the questions will always pop up, becoming annoying and frustrating.
But let's keep in mind every question deserves a fair answer.

And that was my initial point : instead of giving discouraging answers (or even bashing) we should always wonder if those answers are consider holy, are not just old knowledge, becoming rusty in our minds.

Thanks everyone, for your input on this thread, but its gone way off topic now. Feel free to carry this on, regarding cohabs, in another thread.