Frank, do you think caribe will ever breed in captivity?
Do you know if there are any serious hobbyists attempting it and why specifically do you think they don`t spontaneously spawn in captivity as Nattereri seem to do?

To my knowledge, it has been bred in captivity. However, few individuals actually document the achivement until now. Keep in mind, historically P. cariba was not differentiated from P. nattereri because of the old Axelrod books. During the transition, this fish was also called P. notatus.

I'm presently waiting for photos and actual breeding information from a hobbyist. But as of this date, it has not been produced. I do have Jim and Jon Smith account of breeding P. cariba. You can look that one up at OPEFE.

I find it strange the way not a single pair pf piraya have mated in captivity. Armand didnt you know somebody who breeded caribe, or was he telling a porky?

Danny i dont think piraya are mature to breed until they`re around 10 ins, and that doesnt mean when they reach that size they would be automatically prone to spawn, they could get another 3 or 4 inches, now imagine the size tank you would need to house a small group successfully without interfering as wild aggression starts when a male decides he wants a spawning area and pre spawning would only take place once season simulation had been done. The other option is to house a pair at breeding age if that as well is succesful ( just housing the pair i mean).
^ All guess work on my part.
A friend of mine has 4 piraya in a 220 uk gal tank between 12 and 15ins and occasionally a "male" he thinks goes very dark and causes havoc in the tank so hes removed to stop the aggression , 2 previous fish were killed at 12 ins each. The 15ins fish is very round and he thinks its female but when harrassed by the " male" it gets very stressed quickly and there isnt enough space in 220 gals for it to recupperate so the " male " comes out.
I imagine large public aquaria size tanks is where piraya would be most likely spawn as were the rhoms that spawned in Germany.

Didnt no all that mate, cheers.

Also didnt no rhoms had been successfully bred in captivity as they would need to be in the same tank wouldnt they?

No Danny!..they dont have to be in the same tank...they use a special tool called a sperminator in the male tank to move across sperm to the female tank.Its not very nice if you spill any on the floor..its all white and slithery..its called cum dancing.

you seem so serious when you put things steve. really thou would you need a huge tank to cohab 2 rhoms?

Yea you would Danny...and were talking a very big tank just to have a sniff of success.I personaly would never try it.Its a big enough risk with Pygos..they to become a nightmare with aggression as they out grow your tank.

Maybe when ime all your ages mate that i could have success. I would give it ago with piraya definatly. or any Pgo except natt. Dont no weather i would have a rhom. My next choice of fish is a manny. fooking love em

Just dug up this old one.Got these from Alex over 2 years ago now.Not recomended on pic 2 to use a corner tank.

Are they caribes or mannys ? Looks a huge tank their in there mate, did alex have them?

There baby Caribe mate.The tank looks big because they were so small and Alex used to do a bit of importing and got them in for me and Matt.

look nice mate, do you still have them?

Oh brother, sometimes you guys making talking about piranha breeding as some kind of XXX sex film

P. piraya requirements are much greater than what you can offer in a typical home aquarium. There has been documented proof of P. piraya being bred in captivity at a public zoo. Regardless of what you've read. As for S. rhombeus, there are few in public aquariums. Most are mis-identification.

Have you seen that documentation Frank? If so is it something that can be shared here?

Sorry forgo the NOT in the documented proof. Old age is showing again.

Well , we`ll just have to settle for the caribe info you mentioned

If they have bred P.Piraya wouldnt they want it 2 be exploited? Can you say weather it was in The U.S.A or the U.K?

Here you go: http://opefe.com/opefe_research_page.html

Look under the topic.

Ive read that before Frank ( many times)
I was thinking of the other hobbiest with pics etc you mentioned

Nothing but rumors and wishful hoping. When it happens, I'm sure to be one of the first to find out. I hope anyway.

You didnt answer my question Frank : "and why specifically do you think they don`t spontaneously spawn in captivity as Nattereri seem to do?"

There is no specific answer to your question, which is why I didn't answer. The page I cited is all there is on attempts. Why it fails? could be because the species is not predisposed to spawn in captivity, unlike P. nattereri and S. maculatus which seem to spawn year-round.


That's about all I can tell you. Cheers.

Thanks, as with all things we want to know as much as we can about apparent mysteries. In some ways that makes the species reliant on its immediate environment remaining stable for its continued existence then

yeah good point chris.

I think the day will come, its just like saying how did we know that scientists would be able to clone something and it has been done. it just needs to be done a certain way and with certain conditions and in the future we may have success in hopefully P.Piraya too.

Armand did you speak 2 the man at your LFS about the breeding of caribe

Hi.

I haven't seen this thread thats why the delay to answer your question, i apologize.


Well the guy I get my piranha from, still claims he breeds the caribe, however I noticed something that broght my attention quite powerfully.

When I brought home my 3 first caribes, (do you remember that 2 where eaten and now there is just one of that first group remaining?), I was able to see some little dots over their bodies, not many just a few, so I begun to investigate and foud out that those little tiny dots are known as "Black Ich" which is a parasit only presented in wild caught fish!!!!.

My remaining Caribe still presents some of those little dots, I know that the disease cannot thrieve in home aquariums bercause it cannot get its lifecycle completed, and this disease means no or very little harm to fish unless fish is heavily infested.

More recently I knew this guy is also recieving some shipments from Perú of S. Eigemanni, S. Rhombeus, S. Sanchezi and in the future he'll recieve P. Piraya and Terns.

So regarding these facts I believe the guy is telling me porkies not to get more money from the costumer but to protect himself in a legal action could take place against him. P.Caribe is banned in Mexico however he can say "Hey I am not braking the law I am not importing piranha I am BREEDING them so in such a way somehow he protects or thinks he can protect himself agaist any law action.


Cheers.

That parasite can stay in cyst form on the fish for 7 years Armand, and you`re right it cant complete its life cycle until the host is eaten by a bird, i believe snails also play host to it and thats how the fish pick it up.
I had a rhom with it a few years ago and the irritation of the black cysts which would randomly appear drove it half crazy.

Hi Chris.

OMG I know that parasite could stay in a cyst for so long... It is amazing that bug living so long.....

And of course as it is in a cyst it is inmmune to any kind of meds....


Cheers.

Yeah no meds will do anything, the cyst stays dormant waiting for the next host ...ie the bird.

Nice, I just been searching for information on breeding P.cariba

Like hastatus mentioned, Jim Smith is so far the only one who actually accomplished it. That's not to be proven however, since there are no videos.
However before calling it a fairytale like has been done by many, let me explain why I believe him.
Stories don't have to be proven, as long as people are considered reliable people who don't tell bullshit tales.

And I got noticed two people calling Jim "a trustworthy person". And if those two consider him like that, I have absolutely no doubt on that.
So I decided to ask Jim himself on his method. Right now one of the USA PF'ers is trying to breed, keeping Jim's method in mind.

Jim himself told me this :

I will now try to relate what was done to breed caribe, of course when I did it they where called Notatus. I did this many years ago and so I am always remembering small details I had forgotten. I bred fish for fun , everything from Guppies to Nobles Gorami.
This is a list of the materials I had.
1. 55 gal. tank
2. submersible heater , I used 2 one at each end of the tank and they where 100 watt
3.dark gravel about 2 inches which was mixed with white sand about 10%
4.Hygrophilia
5.One large piece of african root wood
6.two airstones ...medium bubble
7.Flor. strip light
8. corner filters
9. bird vitamins...Avatron
10. Black water tonic two good squirts
11. Marine trace elements two teaspoons... HW marine
12. marine salt about 1/8 cup
13 Brown spawning mats 2
14 some viney stuff I got from the wild...looked like a birds nest
15 black construction paper
16 syringe for injecting the smelt
17 diatom filter
18 garden hose
19. six piranhas Two female rest males bought young and raised up.
I think thats everything but if I remember more I will sent you a e-mail.
The tank was set up at first with heavy plants I used hygo because it is so tough and grows rapidly. I placed the drift wood in the middle of the tank. The airstone where placed on either end of the tank and the same with the corner filters. I changed 20% of the water twice a week and ran the diatom twice a month. The PH of the tank ran around 6.8 to 7.0 and I kept the temp. at 80 to 82F. I fed them feeders,crayfish,night crawlers,beefheart, frozen smelt which I injected vit. and a homemade food. The night crawlers and fresh beefheart were the main food. I had no thought of breeding at this point but as the fish got larger I decided to try, by the way I started with ten but ended up with six.
To breed them I decided I needed to simulate the wild so I adjusted day night cycle and reduced the light by using a smaller reflector across the width of the tank instead of the length. I reduced the water level slowly to about half full ,reduced the temp. to about 74 and increased feeding. I also cut way back on water changes and diatom use. Because these fish are so hyper I covered the tanks glass with black construction paper and cut observation flaps . I removed half the Hygro and put in the spawning mats and the birdnest stuff. This conditioning went on for about 2 months you could see the piranhas going through pre spawning behaviour and the females got quite fat. I then waited for a huge storm which came and in the middle of that storm I filled the tank with the garden hose using my finger to create a hard flow which I spread across the whole surface back and forth till the tank was full, the water I filled with was hotter than the tank about 80F and the PH of the tap water was 7.4 I also added some ammonia binder so the change in PH didn't cause me a problem. The next day about 10 am I went down to check things and there where thousands of eggs and most the piranhas were huddled on the opossite side. I put in a divider and in a couple days at 82 F I had fry. I fed them on baby brine and infusoria and like it or not, they picked off their smaller brothers and sisters. I traded them to a pet shop for supplies. at the time I had close to two hundred tanks setup so as you can imagine even then it was costly. I must also say I tried again but to no avail the fish would going then for some reason just stop.

Just thought I could as well post it here :beer:

Nice one on getting that and posting it here Combi.
J.Smith is obviously using his experience from breeding other fish. The syncronization of the male n female being ready must have coincided quite fortunately for him. Its interesting that he knew he had females to start with , there being no sex differences he mustve been certain they had an egg bulge or im wondering did he make the statement that he had the females already in hindsight?
Its all very well having pairs but the eggs need protein like from the heart and worm feedings to ripen .

Nice, just finished composing a Dutch translation out of several mails, now I need to translate back :P

I had some further questions also, I'll just post his answers. First I asked him about the 55 gallon, what seems awfully small for 6 caribas, though it seemed fine to the fish. I'm Dutch, so I also needed to ask some abbreviations and of course I asked for the barometric pressure and how he knew what sexes he had swimming around :

I have bred many fish in a 55, I will agree seems small but, we'll breed in the backseat of a volkwagons lol ,so guess 55 was fine, as you pointed out it may be important, that's what we are trying to find out. The gravel was 2 inches deep the grains where maybe 1/8 inch. The mixture was 10 % sand 90 % gravel. Flo. is a fluorescent light strip in which I used Phillips daylight bulbs. The filters were internal and I used gravel and poly- fil. I don't remember size but they were fairly large. I thought I could tell the sex before the spawn but as it turned out One of the fish I thought was a female turned out to be a male ,so I only knew for sure once spawning happened. The fish get more agressive and they go into a pre spawn, body waggin, color changes and other behaviours very much like normal red bellies. I have had red bellies and corydoras cats actually breed in my store tanks during strong thunderstorms. I belive that the storm the light cycle and good feeding are some of the most important details. A lot of animals are triggered by the end of the dry season and this is what you are trying to do, trick the fish.

The Piranhas were about 5 inches to 8 Inches maybe a bit larger as I didn't measure them can't be more accurate but the female that bred was the biggest in the tank. Yes I covered all the sides with black paper. I don't know how long the Low was overhead but the storm at its most intense lasted around a hour or so.

Well that's about it, except the many times he kindly thanked me for the interest in his story. He was really happy to help me on the subject and for any questions, one can always ask him.
He's one of those guys who is a real polite person, as long as people treat him the same way. Nice and polite man.

Thanks for that Combi, all very interesting stuff and very good reference.

Ps let me know if you have further problems posting, you should be able to post straight off.

If thisd post appears straight off, it's working. So far you had to moderate first ? Busy job you got there

About the references : that's why I like to know who's who... I like to have reliable information.
And with Frank and Jeff calling Jim reliable, I have no doubt at all about their opinion on him.

Reading the above again you can just imagine those caribe being perfectly condiitioned and then triggered by that thunderstorm, much like probably happens in the wild at the onset of the rainy season.
Jim sounds sincere, he probably doesnt understand what all the fuss is about with caribe if he had plenty of equally other hard species he was trying to spawn maybe.

Indeed, probably much ado about nothing to him.
I think it's like Frank stated : not having read about something, does not mean it has never occured.
And not everybody is as busy hosting the net like we do on forums like this.

However I personally like those unproven stories. It makes us depending on trust and honesty again, instead of just getting everything worked out so we don't have to think for ourselves anymore.